Episode Transcript
[00:00:06] Speaker A: Cracking Copy is a marketing and copywriting podcast where we lift the lid on writing for business and read between the lines of effective copy.
[00:00:16] Speaker B: This is a podcast for creative entrepreneurs and savvy business owners like you who understand the value that great copy can bring to their bottom line.
[00:00:24] Speaker A: We dive into a different aspect of writing for business in each episode. Debunk the myths about how we should write and explore the ways that writing can be fun, conversational and creative while also being high impact for serious results.
[00:00:40] Speaker B: So listen, laugh and learn with us, Ella hoyos and Minnie McBride as we share our words and wisdom in each snack sized episode. Expect some light bulb moments, interesting guests and practical takeaways as we crack the copy code together.
[00:01:00] Speaker A: Foreign.
[00:01:06] Speaker B: Hello and welcome to another episode of Cracking Copy. My name's Ella Hoyos, I am a copywriter and launch strategist and I'm really delighted today to have a guest on the show, Rachel Exton, who works for one of the largest global education providers called Pearson, a company called Pearson. She's the Vice President of Marketing in the English Language and Learning division, a working mum and self confessed crazy enthusiastic person which I love. So welcome to the show Rachel.
[00:01:42] Speaker A: Thank you Ella. It's wonderful to be here.
[00:01:45] Speaker B: I know that you've had a varied and extensive career with some big, fast moving consumer good brands. You now work for Pearson, a purpose driven company focused on lifelong learning, education, online learning all over the world. But I'd like you just to tell me a little bit about how you came to this role and what you love about what you do.
[00:02:07] Speaker A: Yeah, sure. Well, it's been around three years now, but I got the phone call about this potential role from a friend, ex colleague, and when she phoned me and said, rachel, I want to speak to you about a potential marketing role at Pearson. I was like, who are they? I really hadn't heard of them. And I was very happy in my role at Dyson. But the more I explored the role and the more people within Pearson I spoke to, it really ignited a fire in my belly that I really didn't know existed. You know, as I said, I was very happy selling vacuum cleaners and before that I've sold disinfectant, air fresheners, shampoo and loved every minute of it. But I'm not sure if it's entering my mid-40s motherhood or even Covid. But suddenly the thought of being able to do what I love, which is marketing, but actually give something back, as I said, ignited a fire in my belly and I really haven't looked back before I took this role. I didn't realize just how privileged I was to be born speaking English. Doors in education, in my career and in life have been automatically opened for me just because I speak English. And for a lot of people all over the world where English isn't their first language, it's not as easy. And so what me and my team do is help break down that door. So no matter where you're born and no matter what your first language is, you can still realize the life that you imagine. You can study abroad, you can work abroad, and you could even move to a new country. And I have to say, three years in, I'm still, you know, extremely motivated behind that mission.
[00:03:55] Speaker B: And that is a great mission. And they say being born into England and speaking English is like winning a lottery ticket. And you just take. Often we take that for granted. So just to wake up to the fact that not everybody's in that position, but you can help bring everyone up to a certain level so that they have the opportunities that we just have naturally occurring to us. That's. And I'm also curious, you know, as vice president of marketing, you work for a big corporate organization. And that's quite a contrast to what I do now, which is a freelance business owner, very much an independent entrepreneur, self employed. I'm very curious to know what the typical day in the life looks like for a vice president of market team to manage.
[00:04:33] Speaker A: The title probably sounds grander than what it is. I feel like a day in the life is like being in an elevator or a lift. You go up and down. So one moment I might be working on strategy and working on, you know, a board paper, the next minute I'm in the weeds writing website copy. Because ultimately, you know, I arrive at work every day and I love getting stuff done. So I go up and down, up and down, depending on, like, where I. Where I am needed. And I think that is in a skill in itself. And at times, as I said, it's thrilling, it's exhilarating, but it can be exhausting as well because you're having to flick your mind through lots of very, very different activities. But it keeps it interesting. And I get enjoyment out of each of the different floors on that elevator, though, I really enjoy it, but it can at times leave me quite exhausted in a need for a glass of wine.
[00:05:32] Speaker B: Yeah, that's really interesting. And what was also interesting, the way you just told that story, because I know that storytelling is something that you're passionate about. I. The elevator analogy.
So, Rachel, that is fascinating. I'm also interested in the fact that you work in internal communications and external communications and some of the lessons that you've learned in your career that you're applying now to your work at Pearson. I'm particularly interested in what I've heard you say about corporate jargon. And as marketers, we tend to use marketing jargon as we, you know, talk to our teams and explain what we do to our clients in favor, you know, instead of using plain English. But plain English is a much more relatable way to talk to people. And I know that you believe in the power of words to drive conversion, so I want to dig into that.
[00:06:24] Speaker A: Yeah, no, absolutely. Well, I'm. I'm queen of kind of keeping it simple, but I'm also a queen of really putting your customer or your consumer at the heart of all you do. And that is what frustrates me with some of the marketing jargon. So if we take the marketing funnel as an example, something that, you know, is drummed into us from university, if you work in the marketing trade, and I love it, it's such a useful tool.
But the words in which we traditionally use to describe each stage of the funnel are just so alien from the lives and the conversations that our consumers have. And if our job as marketeers is to really Eng age, why are we using different language? So, for example, when have you ever gone to meet your girlfriends in the pub for a glass of wine and say, girls, guess what? I've been acquired by a new brand. Or even better, girls, guess what? I've been converted. You know, we just don't speak like that. But do I walk into the pub and say, oh, my God, girls, I've just discovered the most amazing earrings on Instagram? Yeah, absolutely. So I feel that language is really powerful. And if you want to get your teams to create deeply rooted communication which will speak and engage with your consumer, you have to speak like they do internally. And that's the power of using words like help me discover, help me choose, help me buy, and help me stay, rather than the traditional language of awareness and acquisition, consideration.
It's a really small shift, but it can have a really big shift in terms of the way you think and the way you approach briefs and the way in which you approach copy. And I first discovered this. I didn't create this. I first discovered this kind of language when I worked at Dyson, and I saw the power of it firsthand. So it's something that I took with me as I moved into Pearson. And it's now how we speak in the team, which is wonderful. You know, we don't talk about, let's generate awareness. We talk about how are we going to get more people to discover us. And I've really seen the shift in the team in terms of the quality of the output as a result.
[00:08:53] Speaker B: Yeah, well, it's a natural language, a natural way of talking and receiving a message in line with what the consumer. Consumer, there's another jargon word, what the end user expects to hear, you know, or to understand. So your audience will be more receptive to the message if it's delivered in that non textbook way in the first place.
[00:09:14] Speaker A: Exactly. You're speaking in their language, you're more engaging, you know, they can relate to you more. It's a win. Win.
[00:09:21] Speaker B: Yeah. Are there any great stories that illustrate that point in.
[00:09:25] Speaker A: Yeah, well, absolutely. As I said, it's something I brought with me into Pearson and I kind of really fully explained it to the team and kind of listened to their feedback, but it's something that we've really embraced. I'm proud of the fact that now that it is just something which is in our everyday language whenever we're working. So it's in the team's language, it's in all our agency language, it's in our strategy, it's in our briefing documents, it's in our campaign kits. So it's just the way we work now. But one example I think of where we've done it and really shown kind of business results is on one part of my product, product portfolio which is called the Pearson Test of English. So if you live in a non English speaking country, but you would like to come to an English speaking country to study, work or live, you need to get a visa. And part of your visa requirements are that you show your English proficiency. So you need to take an exam. Pearson Test of English is one of those exams. There are others out there, but that is my baby.
[00:10:32] Speaker B: Right.
[00:10:33] Speaker A: And so we developed a full funnel campaign and we worked with an agency and we briefed them around creating compelling copy for each stage of the funnel. So discover, choose, buy and stay.
And we based this on consumer research. So we really, we went out and spoke to a high number of people who are in this situation and the overriding feedback, which was consistent throughout the globe, was the stress that this exam puts on your shoulders. Quite often when you are looking to study, work or migrate abroad, it's not just your dream, it's the dream of your family. And it could have been the dream of your family for generations. And they have saved and saved to give you this opportunity. And now one exam will make or break that dream. You can imagine the weight on your shoulders as you're walking in. And really, you know, you should just be focusing on letting your English proficiency shine. But they're bringing with it all of this baggage.
So we created a beautiful kind of campaign cap, campaign platform, and the copy which brought it to life was all around do it worry free. The way in which our exam has been designed is that it allows you to take away that stress and just focus on what you do best, which is show off your English proficiency. So at the very top of the funnel, they helped me discover it was all around do it worry free.
Then when it came to help me choose, we had to give them reasons to believe that message. And this is when we talked about how the design of our test is different. And it allowed us, it allows us to say that we're faster, we're fairer, and we're simpler. And it's for those three reasons that we can allow you to do it worry free.
[00:12:38] Speaker B: Right.
[00:12:40] Speaker A: And then when we get to the like, you know, help me buy, we try a number of different tactics. So it could be 10% off. It could be a testimonial from a test taker, somebody like you who has just taken their exam or just got their results, or it could be, you know, book today and get free flights to take you to your destination. We'll continue test always testing and learning, especially at that bottom part of the funnel on what's going to push people over the edge and get them to book today. Yeah. And then with help me stay with this product, you don't tend to re buy. You take your test, hopefully you get your dream score and off you go. So with the help me buy or help me stay, what we tend to do here is once you've booked your test, we make sure we send you regular communication to help you do your absolute best. So we have test prep free and page four. But there are also things that people need to remember on the day, like don't forget your passport. So we make sure that we just don't like, oh, you book your test. Brilliant. We've got your money, we're off. We make sure from the moment they book that test all the way through to receiving their results, we're constantly setting them up for success and living up to that very first message of doing it worry free.
[00:14:03] Speaker B: That's a really fantastic illustration of how that can work. And I understand. You know, that helped me discover that's the, in marketing speak, that'd be the awareness phase of a marketing campaign. Helping you choose, that's helping people on their buying journey through the considerations because there are other, like you say, there are other people who can provide this test, but can they do it worry free? Can they take some of that anxiety away? So that's a really compelling value proposition. Choose Pearson and you can do it with less stress. You help them buy through some of those incentivized offers and, and helping me stay is not necessarily because they're going to be a repeat customer, but it, that also is sort of about the brand loyalty phase, isn't it? And perhaps if they can recommend to a friend that they did this and it was great and it worked for them and it was easy and they got the result that they want, then that's a win for Pearson as well.
[00:14:53] Speaker A: I agree and I often speak to my team as well is it's about the Funnel is a great tool and it really allows you to help bring people from discovery to purchase. But what you've also got to do is wrap that funnel in love because sometimes a brand can do a fantastic job of making you aware and making you get to the point of purchase, but if you don't fall in love with that brand, then actually you're not going to buy it. And I always use Tesla as an example. So I think Tesla have done a fantastic job of the funnel marketing. I'm aware I know exactly all the reasons why a Tesla is better, but I will never buy because I think Elon Musk is a knob and there is, you know, the best full funnel marketing in the world is not going to change that. So as well as thinking about funnel, it's really important that you kind of wrap it in love as well. So I'd encourage your listeners to think about the two in combination.
[00:15:59] Speaker B: Yeah, absolutely. I mean what we've talked through, the funnel or the sales flow or the customer journey, however you want to position it, that is the logical steps that people take. And sometimes it's not a straight line either, it's a squiggly line. You know, they may come back around to circle back around to deciding or being aware of choosing, but that's a very logical process. Whereas the wrapping, it was love. That's the emotional drivers. And actually emotion is such a key part of, of marketing. How do we want people to feel working with us? You cannot overlook the power of emotion. And if you have a negative emotional trigger like I can't. I don't want to buy from that man. I don't believe in his principles, whatever it is, then that's going to work against you. So no matter how convincing and compelling the argument, if you don't like something because of it compromises your values, you're going to go somewhere else.
I'm interested in digging a little bit more into storytelling. You told me a story about the elevator and the typical life in a day, but how do you tell stories in a corporate setting?
[00:17:06] Speaker A: No, it's a great question. So a couple of things spring to mind here. I think three things. The first thing is it's really important to make sure that before you even begin to tell a story that you really deeply understand that customer.
I'm a big believer that the best marketing is about putting a mirror up to the person that you speak to and they think, oh my goodness, how did you know that about me? How did you know I was worried about that? Or how did you know that I was dreaming of that? And if you can really, really dig deep and understand that deep rooted insight that drives your customer, then it makes it easy to tell a great story. So I would really encourage people to first dig deep before they even put pen to paper. And I often find that people say, oh, I've done my consumer research, but they don't go deep enough. This is when you've got to be that annoying child. Why, why, why, why, why? And like, you know, and don't stop because quite often people either don't do the research or they do it, but it doesn't go deep enough. So make sure you go deep would be my first thing then. I always really like thinking about it, a problem in solution.
So, you know, to engage with your customer, whoever they might be, what is the biggest problem that they're facing at the moment and how can you solve it?
And then I also love kind of making it real, you know, making it relatable. Whether that's bringing in, you know, real life, people who have been through it, or case studies or bringing in some numbers. But I think, yeah, that keeping it real is really helpful as well. So I think they would be my top three tips. Go deep on your insight. Before you even start thinking about a story, think about it and frame it as problem solution and then make it real, make it really relatable to that person.
[00:19:04] Speaker B: That's really interesting because these are universal truth, these storytelling tactics. Regardless the fact that you work for a huge multinational organization and I work from home as a small business Working largely with entrepreneurs and smaller companies. But the principles that you use to uncover the story, exactly the same that I would use. And it's that deep level market research, beyond the demographics and the age and the location of where somebody lives, into actually getting on a research call and getting on a one to one conversation to really uncover those problems that somebody's facing or those aspirations or desires that they have and then translating that into offers that addressed the needs of our customers. And it's relatable because, you know, even if you're talking about one specific person, and I think that is, that rule of one is really important as well. One message to one person. It doesn't mean that somebody from a different background or different situation can't relate to that story. They can, they can still see the value in it. If it worked for somebody like them or with similar problem to them, they might be a different type of person, they might live in a different place, but they share the same common problem or desire, then that's what makes it relate and work across the board. You said that you're excited about the shift from calls to action. Here's another jargon thing that any marketer, social media manager, copywriter will know. You always end your copy campaign message with a call to action. What do you want the reader or the viewer or the customer to do next?
And something that you're more interested in is a call to outcome. So I'm interested to dig into that. You've done some A B testing at Pearson. Can you tell me what you mean by the difference between a call to action and a call to outcome?
[00:20:57] Speaker A: Yeah, absolutely. So a call to action is, you know, copy, which is asking people to do something. Sign up now, download now.
Great. Very clear, very simple.
But it's not really putting your customer or consumer first, it's what you want them to do. Whereas a call to outcome is about flipping a switch in your head because you still want them to sign up now and you actually do still want them to download. But how can you frame it a way which puts them first? So for example, accelerate your career today, achieve your dreams today.
You know, it's getting them to do the same thing, but it's, it's putting them at the heart of it and their dreams, their hopes, their fears at the heart of it. And I've seen like my heart tells me that that's the right thing to do, but my head also tells me that the right thing to do is. We've been running some A B tests on shifting on our Website, but also on our campaigns, from the traditional call to action, which is the Ron Seal does what it says on the tin, to putting the consumer insight at the heart. And the uplifts that we're seeing are incredible. And I love it when your heart and your head come together. It's like, yes, I thought it was the right thing to do and now the numbers show it to me. So we're not there yet and we're constantly improving. But you know, on our website, on all of our campaign, we're beginning to make that shift and experimenting. And the beauty of digital media means that you can forever test for free. You know, you just keep on running these A B test to see what works is what we find is sometimes what works in India might not work in China and it might be completely different in Brazil. But this is the beauty of what we do, really. We keep learning, we keep trialing. But overall, I would say the core to Outcome is performing consistently better. And it's no surprise because you're putting your consumer at the heart rather than putting what your business result as the kind of number one thing.
[00:23:18] Speaker B: Yeah, I've also heard it described as a call to value. It's showcasing the value of what you'll get if you take the action.
[00:23:24] Speaker A: And yeah, well, I actually think there are three. There's almost like a little stairway. So there's call to action, which was the most traditional sign up. Now then I would say call to value is in the middle, which is something like get expert tips for free. But I would say call to outcome is at the very top of the tree because that is the really consumer centric one. So I've kind of seen, you know, over the past couple of years this move from call to Action action to call to value to Call to Outcome. But I, from my experience would say call to Outcome is definitely the top of the tree at the moment. And I'm sure we'll dream up some clever people will think of the next thing after that. But for now, I would definitely recommend focusing on call to outcome.
[00:24:12] Speaker B: Yeah. Okay, thanks for that distinction between the different terminology and yes, marketing and the way we buy. Our consumer behavior is ever evolving. So no doubt that it will be something different in a few years. But for now it's like this is what works and we can test it because with digital marketing tools and if it's online, it's measurable and that's really helpful in terms of shaping the direction of your marketing campaigns, your budget, where you're going to allocate resources and how you can tweak and optimize. And it sounds like Pearson, you're, you know, your lifelong learning company, but it sounds like internally you're always lifelong learning as well. If you can tweak and optimize your processes to have better outcomes for the company, then that's what you do.
[00:24:58] Speaker A: Absolutely. And I think one of the best character traits for anybody who works, whether it's in marketing or copy or advertising, is curiosity. You know, the world is constantly changing, so you've got to be curious to find out why, because there's no way that you can just stand still if you want to remain, you know, top of your game within the industry.
[00:25:21] Speaker B: Yeah. Staying curious. Thank you so much, Rachel. That's been really interesting insight into how you operate, how your team operates. We're just circling back to the. The help me discover, help me choose, help me buy, help me stay model. You brought that with you from a former company. But how easy or challenging has it been to embed that new process into your team and what you do now, like this, this language reframing that we've talked about today.
[00:25:52] Speaker A: Change is never easy, you know, but this one was probably one of the easiest changes that, you know, I wanted to bring into the team. And I think it makes sense. You know, it's not rocket science, but what I did was start by, you know, just explaining it to people and why I found it useful and listening to their feedback and be willing to adapt. You know, I brought the framework from. From. From Dyson, but Pearson isn't Dyson. You know, it's a very different world and it shouldn't be exactly the same, but it was a useful framework and we could adapt it to our situation. So I think it's about, you know, transparency of being really open with the team very clearly and simply why you're making this change, but listening to feedback and not being willing to adapt and flex to make sure that it works. And then ultimately it's about giving it a go and constantly getting feedback. But, you know, as I said, because this is a very simple and intuitive framework, people like, yeah, this makes sense. Let's give it a go. And as they started to use it, they saw the benefit, and then it was just quite a point positive kind of wheel, if you'd like. And as I said, now our agencies talk to us in this way, our strategy is structured in this way, our briefing templates are written in this way.
So I'm not saying it was easy, but it was one of the more easier kind of Change management programs that I've worked on. I've had others which have been a nightmare and like been really hard to do. But I think if you're bringing in something that makes sense, it's helping people develop, it's helping make their job easier, it's helping them be more impactful, then you meet little resistance.
[00:27:43] Speaker B: Yeah, it's a win win. And that is testament to the fact that simple ideas are often the best. I mean, are we terrible at marketers as over complicating and, and thinking of, you know, the new shiny new object syndrome? We want to implement it. It's a new technique, new strategy, a new tactic that's, that's trending at the moment. But it's almost like why don't we tune out from the noise and ask ourselves what would this look like if it was easy? And I think bringing that simplicity to the team is probably a sigh of relief often for a lot of people who've been embroiled in complicated strategies.
[00:28:21] Speaker A: I agree. You know what, I think it's one of the greatest gifts that a leader or a manager can bring to the team is just keep it simple. You know, a strategy should not be a 500 page PowerPoint. A strategy is a simple statement of what we're going to do.
And if you can keep it simple, then it means people can understand it and people can get behind it.
So, yeah, I couldn't agree with you more. Keep it simple.
[00:28:48] Speaker B: Yeah, lots of valuable lessons and takeaways there. Just sort of reinforcing common sense, I would say. Reinforcing those beliefs that the simple relatable methods can really work. No matter what scale. Whether you're a small entrepreneurial startup business or a large corporate, it's these principles that are universal at work.
So thank you so much, Rachel. I really appreciate that. If anybody wants to get in touch with you, how can they get in touch with you?
[00:29:17] Speaker A: I think LinkedIn will probably be the best way. So yeah, please DM me. I do my best to get back to everybody. Bear with me though. I am a full time working mother so it's not always immediate but people get in touch. I'm always really pleased to hear from people. And we'll get back to you.
[00:29:32] Speaker B: Yeah, it's fantastic. Well, thanks for being on Cracking Copy today, Rachel. I appreciate it.
[00:29:36] Speaker A: Thanks for having me, Ella. Take care.
[00:29:37] Speaker B: Bye bye.
You have been listening to the Cracking Copy podcast with Ella hoyos and Minnie McBride.
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[00:29:55] Speaker B: And more details and resources are in our show notes.
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